o.oa So like, if they cast someone to play the Carole Ann Ford who played Susan for An Adventure in Time and Space and did all that to show us the origins of Doctor Who and even like say introduce some of the first Doctor’s adventures to new Whovians, doesn’t that mean that now…
It’d be great if Carole could come back too, but like I think they said for her earlier re-appearances that since Time Lords/Time Ladies don’t age at the same rate as humans that she was using make up to hide how she really looked so they were using that as an excuse for why Carole was getting older.
I’m just thinking maybe Claudia could be her “real” Time Lady self, but maybe if they had both of them, Carole could be her earth disguise when she like visits her adopted kids and grandkids?
I thought Day of the Doctor was okay, not bad, but not great either. It had some strong moments, some funny moments and some sweet, Kate was absolutely wonderful, the Zygons were cool, the shot and dialogue references to Classic Who were exactly right, they actually resolved the “Virgin Queen”…
I really don’t know what else we could have had other than the CGI stand-ins though at the end.
I mean, I still need to catch up on Classic Who and I have a great amount of appreciation and respect for the previous Doctors, but people also love those Doctors for how they looked THEN. In real life, those actors have aged. For the in-universe stuff, people remember what those Doctors looked like when they regenerated and Time Lords don’t really age the same way as humans do, so it wouldn’t make sense for continuity to have them back any other way than from archive photos and footage. I suppose they could have figured out a way to include all of the living older Doctors in a way a la The Curator, but only bringing Tom Baker back as a possible future self was a nice logical way to at least include someone from the Classics with out making the story WAY too overblown and convoluted with too many actors and too many characters.
Other than that, 3 actors are dead, Eccleston declined to be in it, so how else should they have been included? Maybe the CG could have been better, but for budget and time constraints, I’m going to go with a lack of time and money to go quite that far because it takes a long time to get a computer to make something that actually looks like a hi-definition photo and then with the whole film being offered in 3D, that’s more time added to the production where they’re already going through the complicated process of editing the actual camera shot film for 3D. Logistically, I feel like all of the Doctors were represented in the best way they could have been.
I’m with you on John Hurt possibly being unnecessary though, but I wonder if maybe it was a time commitment issue? I dunno. Paul McGann seems like he’s otherwise kind of busy with his other roles.
Correct me if I’m wrong, I mean, I’m not quite through yet, but it looks like this special is completely negating Nine’s entire existence?
What the everloving fuck.
Nine didn’t want to be in the special, so they had…
Eh, honestly, even if Moffat didn’t bullshit it basically it’s a sci-fi show so any writer they pick will have to make up something for how come the earlier Doctors don’t remember anything. It’s not even something that is a first time precedent by Moffat either. Tennant met Davison in a minisode, and there were two earlier specials during Classic Who that gathered multiple Doctors and the same idea/question applies because otherwise the Doctor could completely change the events in his own timeline by an earlier Doctor remembering. I mean, the very first 10th anniversary special had Hartnell, Troughton, and Pertwee and 1 and 2 went back to their respective times as well. What do you think happened there?
As for Eccleston, according to this article released in August, it looks like he’d be down to do a special in another year. He specifically mentions a 100th, but maybe 60 or 75?
For good measure, you could always look up his fan mail address and like just write him a letter about how much you love his work, love his portrayal of 9 and wish he could have participated. I’m sure he’d appreciate it and it could convince him to try to make time to fit it into his schedule next time. Who knows, he could be in a minisode with Capaldi.
Correct me if I’m wrong, I mean, I’m not quite through yet, but it looks like this special is completely negating Nine’s entire existence?
What the everloving fuck.
Nine didn’t want to be in the special, so they had to use archive footage of him [Source] and they explain why the later Doctors don’t remember what happened at the end and why the continuity still works.
If The Day of the Doctor didn’t make you love Steven Moffat as a writer again, I don’t know what will. If that episode and The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances don’t make you put aside Asylum of the Daleks, then you’re just as mad as the Master.
I’m finding that most of the people that are hating on Moffat’s writing for this are also harping on details they forgot from previous episodes. Like I’ve seen some people blaming him for the marriage to Elizabeth I when RTD introduced that idea. There’s a lot of information to absorb and I don’t think anyone was able to catch ALL of the details (I’m actually slowly being able to wrap my head around everything from talking to people about it on tumblr ^O^), but some people are honestly being too quick to jump on him instead of objectively asking questions to see if they missed something first. They’re just going to straight to rage mode. =/
I mean for me, I enjoyed it, but there were details that I even missed here and there and before I get critical at all, I want to make sure I understand what the hell I just watched.
So, I’ve been reading pages of pages of tags on this and I haven’t found a single other person who feels the way I do.
It was not very good.
Sure, we have an episode cram packed with references to as many Doctor’s as humanly possible. We have a story line which had MASSIVE potential. I mean,…
I enjoyed it, but I can understand it wasn’t your cup of tea.
1) How are they ever able to cross their own timelines? It’s been done several times before for other specials and David Tennant did a minisode where he met Peter Davison’s, so eh… The Doctor even went into his own time stream in the last episode of the last season and we’re not even sure how the hell he got out but presumably because he was in his own time stream, he also met himself because that’s why the Great Intelligence went in it to mess with him and why Clara went in to save him.
2) It’s been established in previous episodes that even if an event is a fixed point in time, if the Doctor does something that has essentially the EXACT SAME EFFECT, then time doesn’t go all crazy and wonky. You might think it’s limited to only Moffat’s writing, but Tennant changed a fixed point in time in Waters of Mars by saving the colonists and what made the fixed point’s effects stick was that Captain Adelaide Brooke committed suicide so that she would still die and inspire her granddaughter. Out of Moffat’s era, 11 doesn’t die in Utah and instead River shoots the Teselecta instead making the whole universe THINK that he’s dead. Basically by saving Gallifrey, but making it disappear, it makes everyone else think it was destroyed thus keeping the continuity in the past episodes the same and preserving the fixed point.
3) The stuff with the Zygons happened. Presumably in the present they have made peace. In the past, they infiltrated and took over, put themselves in the paintings, and Elizabeth I is pretending to be their leader. 10 just forgets the bits about his own future.
4) 10 marries Elizabeth I because he already did before the start of the End of Time episode. Don’t blame Moffat for something RTD introduced. All he did was show it on screen (which I’ll give, could have been better). In 10’s continuity, he did it because he was feeling kind of power crazy facing the possibility of his own death from 4 knocks and the “freedom” of being the last of the Time Lords and able to do whatever the hell he damn well feels like it because no one’s around to tell him “No”.
If 10 forgot the events of the episode, how did he remember marrying Elizabeth?
That part I’m not sure of either, but I’m guessing that maybe they still got married after he went back because before that rift where he met himself, he was out there with Elizabeth so going back to his own timeline, he would have to face up to the fact that he proposed.
Or maybe there’s a slight delay in the memory fading so one day he like woke up and was married to her and was like “WTF? OH WELL.” and just kept going.
I feel like Moffat is going to try to end Doctor Who with Capaldi, which I am totally not okay with. When the Doctor says “All thirteen of us,” they are now completely and undoubtedly saying that there can only and will only be thirteen incarnations, and I am not okay with that. They can’t just…
I think it’s just written that way because it’s the understood “law” right now. He’s answered the question about the number of regenerations and who would be the final doctor several times and basically it comes down to the BBC coming up with SOME KIND of creative excuse to keep it going because money train. They know it’s more popular than ever.
The fans who have been trying to keep track of the regeneration limit were already counting 13 so it’s not like it’s anything that’s really new, but it’s just a fact that right now we know as fans that there are 13 because they haven’t given us the reason for the pre-established rule to be broken yet.
There was talk before the special that the limit is null because Gallifrey was gone, but now we see that it isn’t, so is it gone? And then there’s other theories about River giving her regenerations, so then the Doctor has extras now. It’ll probably be explored under Capaldi.
I’m sure some fans will be asking after that “But how come those other incarnations didn’t come to Time Lock Gallifrey?” and well maybe because the rest of those regenerations know that those other past selves don’t know that they get extra regenerations so they’re staying the crap out of it.
Or maybe after the Doctor finds Gallifrey, he somehow gets regenerations from other Time Lords/Time Ladies (take or reward; I dunno). The High Council is obviously (End of Time) not happy with what he did, but the people in the war room there seem okay with it and like the regular citizens of Gallifrey would probably be okay with not dying. Maybe we’ll see a revolution and the High Council gets executed and the Doctor gets their extras? Who knows.
So, I suppose, one day, the Doctor decides to retire being “The Doctor”, Re-Regenerates into 4 and then becomes the Curator?
That’s what I’m thinking too, but it sounds like other fans are taking the “revisiting” comment literally too and thinking he’s taking older regenerations from himself or I don’t know. There’s a bunch of ways it could go. That part sounds really timey-wimey and purposely ambiguous.
According to classic Who and a comment from the Great Intelligence though, he still has to be the Valeyard as well, so he has other names to cycle through.
I’ve watched the 50th twice and I have a question still… what the heck happened to the Zygons?
In the past, they’re still there and Elizabeth I is still pretending to be their leader which is why she tries to kill 10 later on in her timeline when she sees him with Martha and Shakespeare.
In the present, there might be some that infiltrated UNIT, but they’re in the paintings that are in storage.
It took me awhile to think and figure this out too with the help of other people on tumblr. There was a lot of information to absorb in the special and the first time around I think I missed some details freaking out about something else.
Wait, so with Gallifrey back, does that mean the Doctor can visit his friends and family again? And he can also have Gallifreyan companions again? HELL YEAH!
Even before this aired, there was potential for Susan to come back because they did the An Adventure in Space and Time special and Susan was left on earth. Just cast Claudia Grant to be Susan since she played Carole Ann.
I’d kind of been hoping that after they aired that, that meant that Capaldi is going to be a bit more like the older, classic Doctors and they’ll throw back to more nostalgia including bringing back Susan and Gallifrey.
While I do actually enjoy Moffat’s work, I can see why some people might not care for his writing or job as showrunner even when they like his one ofs and such. I’m glad that you enjoy the special.
I’m thinking though that maybe some of the issues with the writing of the show overall and the showrunning might have to do with the stress and time constraints for filming, production, and the show overall whereas if you are only writing one episode or one special, you have more time to work on it and work out the kinks in it. This does also suggest that maybe he shouldn’t be showrunner, but I offer this as a possible explanation between the discrepancy between his era overall and his single episodes previously.
Another piece of food for thought is that I’ve seen in Q&As that Moffat has mentioned his wife gets on his case for how slow he writes (I think she helps him produce Sherlock?) so yeah…That could be another indication.
i still want to know how moffat found a way around the whole only 12 regenerations thing
I don’t believe he explained his solution to that yet. Maybe the Christmas special?
Tom Baker’s Curator appearance though does imply that he has more…
I did listen to it. I suppose then it depends on what you take the Curator to mean by “revisiting”. By your interpretation, he is physically revisiting his past selves in the literal sense. By mine, I’m interpreting it as he’s revisiting them in a figurative sense in that he just has the same face again like you can revisit an idea or memory after not thinking about it in awhile.
We’ll just have to see what sense the writers make it come out to be.
BBC America airing “The End of Time” right after “The Day of the Doctor” is just cruel because my emotions can’t handle it. “I don’t wanna go” twice within a few hours and David Tennant leaves BOTH times?! How am I supposed to handle this??
Imagine if it was An Adventure in Space and Time, The End of Time, and The Day of the Doctor back to back. ;o;
The 50th was really good, but I’m trying so hard to not be severely disappointed that Rose wasn’t Rose and her and ten/eleven didn’t even interact. Though I suppose the fact that out of all the forms it could’ve took from the Doctor’s past and future, it took Rose’s, really says something.
and that something is that he’s deeply in love with her and cares about her above anything else in the universe
It might be saddening that they didn’t interact, but in my mind, the Rose that was The Moment was made by 9’s Rose after she looked into the Time Vortex. She was omnipotent and placed messages across time and space and created herself. She probably gave The Moment the consciousness that they mention at the beginning of the episode and made it take her form, etc. (The glow in her eyes in particular makes me think this.) The Moment itself is mainly interacting with The War Doctor, but even if she could interact with 10/11, it wouldn’t be the Rose that they remember because that her didn’t go through the experiences that they remember with them yet because she was 9’s Bad Wolf.
Why does John Hurt regenerate? Why did they all turn up at the end? Why doesn’t David Tennant remember it all? Are the time lords going to come back? What about all that stuff in the end of time episode with the time lords? Why didn’t Clara do that much? Why was Tom Baker the curator and look so old? Why was the chemistry between David and Matt a bit…off? At what point in 10’s life time did it all take place? Why wasn’t Christopher Eccleston in it?
1) John Hurt - I might have been spazzing too much to notice if anything actually happened to him, but maybe he got hurt or maybe the potion that 8 got from Karn only made a temporary new face just for the purpose of stopping the Time War. Who knows.
2) More TARDIS+Doctors = More chance of it working. The 3 in most of the special probably called the rest of them.
3) Tenant and earlier 11 don’t remember as explained at the end because everyone goes back to their timelines and because of the paradox of the Doctor crossing his own timeline 13x12 times, time is basically rectifying itself by wiping their minds.
4) All the time lords could come back because now the Doctor is apparently going to go find Gallifrey.
5) Clara - Um, my best guess is that she’s human (at least the version of her that we saw in the 50th) and I really can’t think of what else she could have possibly done with a plot on that scale where basically the Doctor could only solve it. She helped him a bit with what bit she could do, but that her is not in his time stream at that time and when she was she was only trying to save him from the Great Intelligence. A better question would be how come Time Lady Clara that told 1 to take that particular TARDIS isn’t in the special.
6) Tom Baker was the Curator because of what he told to 11. He said that he cycles through his old faces and 11 said he thought it’d be nice to just come back and be Curator one day. So Tom Baker is a future regeneration that took up 4’s face again and decided to hang around the gallery for a REALLY LONG TIME.
7) The chemistry between Matt and Tennant is subjective. I think they got along fine.
8) 10’s timeline should be between Waters of Mars and the End of Time.
9) Christopher Eccleston wasn’t in it because he politely declined the invitation. [Source] You can’t make someone be in a special if they don’t want to participate.
I’m not going to even attempt to be coherent. I’m still excited. I thought it wasn’t consistently strong writing on the part of Moffat, and I’m not familiar enough with Classic Who to see if he crossed any lines.
Moffat wrote her perfectly. Yes it was The Moment BUT. It became Rose. What did it do for the Doctor? What Rose always does. She healed him. She was saving him because she wants him…
I would add that when Rose became Bad Wolf, she did say “I am the Bad Wolf. I create myself.”
And she was super-omnipotent and left messages ALL OVER time and space. She could have *MADE* the Moment take her form. I want to say that was 9’s Rose still carrying whatever she absorbed into the Time Vortex and leaving that tidbit of herself in The Moment for The Doctor to help him.
Whovians, a question, does anyone know whereabouts in Ten's timeline he was during the episode?
I kind of feel like it’s before the End of Time because that episode opens with 10 making a crack about how Elizabeth is not “Good Queen Bess”, which at the time when I was watching it made me think he just came from that time so if it shows his actual marriage, then it should be before that?
The episode with Timothy Dalton and John Simm as the numerous masters where he tried to return Gallifrey? Are they bringing that into the new stuff? Are they bringing back the race? Is the Time War un-time locked…? D: IM CONFUSED,
The Time War should still be over because the idea that with Gallifrey disappearing, the Daleks would just shoot themselves and go away, so Gallifrey is still time locked.
But how exactly that fits in with the End of Time I’m not sure because I would have thought Rassilon would have been in that command center room with everyone else, but I guess not? I know 10 doesn’t remember how Gallifrey went down, but then it wouldn’t make sense for how End of Time played out because you’d think the Time Lords that show up in that ep would be happier and not evil?
BUT WAIT THIS MEANS THAT 11 IS ACTUALLY 12 AND 10 IS 11 AND 9 IS 10 RUGHT???
Moffat “says” that the official numbering doesn’t change. ”Says.”
As a technicality, as fans we’re already used to referring to the respective Doctors by those numbers which would be make it hard on us to change, but yeah, I’d say 11 is actually 12. I went into the episode thinking the War Doctor would completely be the Warrior, but with an ending where he’s more like the Doctor than anything, that makes him 9 in my book.
I think like the in-story explanation for why the official numbering won’t change is probably because none of the later incarnations will remember that he wasn’t the War Doctor.
o.oa So like, if they cast someone to play the Carole Ann Ford who played Susan for An Adventure in Time and Space and did all that to show us the origins of Doctor Who and even like say introduce some of the first Doctor’s adventures to new Whovians, doesn’t that mean that now they can cast Claudia Grant to play Susan in a new episode of Doctor Who so that for the first time in decades the Doctor will be seen on screen with his granddaughter?
The first tears from Adventure in Time and Space came when Hartnell’s granddaughter is talking to him and asking him about the future of Doctor Who when it was clear that his health was just getting worse and he wouldn’t be able to continue.